Mojave Convention Summit: Bull's Adjudication

Discussion in 'Factions & Alliances' started by The Nak, Jan 10, 2017.

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  1. The Nak

    The Nak

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    Vulpes' claim of ambiguity holds water. I have agreed and do that defectors are not entirely covered under the treaty. With that said, Vulpes I would ask that you agree or at least consider the fact that the proof here shows intent to acquire information that does fall under the treaty. What this means is you sought information from someone who offered it that should not have. I think we can all agree that things would be better off if ex faction members didn't spread information like this, and the treaty is seeking an end to this sort of behavior.

    If you really do want to make the claims that what you did or were doing were justified, I would ask that you admit to the fault that is here. Was any information Alex could have offered worth it? I have to say that this argument of saying the treaty is not specific enough should have spurred further questioning sooner than it allowed acting this way. Think of it like this, the law says you're not allowed to step on someone's private property, but it doesn't say you can't fly a drone over it. You're still breaching their privacy by using the drone, and the point of the private property was to keep privacy sacred. If you didn't know for sure that this would be acceptable, you should have asked.
     
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  2. Strange Meat

    Strange Meat

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    Problem is, they probably understood full well what they were doing was breaking the treaty, but their just trying to get off on a "perceived" technicality, but there is something far worse.

    Even if Caesar had blatantly broken the treaty, he would not have given up his leadership as he promised. There is no technicality, they broke the treaty fair and square. Them going into damage control proved they were guilty.
     
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  3. Vegas Oramas

    Vegas Oramas

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    Do you know what OOC means?
     
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  4. Vulpes Inculta

    Vulpes Inculta

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    Take this all as a lesson to you current Convention signers that the Act should be written more specifically.

    I would also be interested in Nak's definition of "information...you would otherwise not have" Or to at least expand on that.

    My final point is re-asserting that we actually never obtained any information from Alex. There are no repercussions for conspiring to spy. Thus, no penalties should be given to the Legion.

    Case, closed.
     
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  5. Strange Meat

    Strange Meat

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    Unfortunately, you have just admited you had the intention of spying with this argument. You have admited you conspired to spy, and we know Brian (or Alex) had sensitive information. Even if we dident have proof, on the balance of probabilities you would loose out. From Caesars hostile/defensive nature at the creation of this thread, we have proven that you had intended and have without reasonable doubt, broken the terms of the agreement.

    EDIT: not to mention, you had one spy watching the NCR discord at the time under the name rib sauce, he is called recruit rib in the video, he was spying for you at the time. That makes 2.
     
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2017
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  6. Vulpes Inculta

    Vulpes Inculta

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    We signed the treaty in good faith.

    We didn't find it necessary to consult the convention if a defector counted as a spy. Spying, at least in my eyes, constitutes using alt accounts or other cheesy antics. The point I was trying to convey with the conspiring angle was that we didn't even obtain information in the 1st place. No harm no foul right?

    It's all pretty straight forward.
     
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  7. Vulpes Inculta

    Vulpes Inculta

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    Rib was also a defector.

    Edit: And @StrangeMeat Defending oneself is not damage control and does not admit guilt :p
     
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  8. Strange Meat

    Strange Meat

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    Except you are guilty by balance of probability (and burden of proof I might add), according to the document you agreed to and signed. All the posts here have exposed you for that.

    Also, rib was a active spy, in the video you can see Caesar and all of you asking him real time information about a channel in the NCR discord and what we were talking about, that's not a defector, that's a active spy.

    EDIT: you got legion members to spam the topic defending Caesar, that's damage control if I ever saw it
     
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  9. Blazefire1821

    Blazefire1821

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    Why don't you try and point the finger at someone else as we don't give a shit to spy on you anymore you've set up your own destruction we don't need to do anything as you seem to be doing it yourself
     
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  10. The Nak

    The Nak

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    I've made a modification to the Convention's Espionage Act to help with this problem already.

    The definition is quite simply put actually:
    "Information that you would not otherwise have, is any information that you were not given explicitly by the creator of such information, or someone the creator has given the right to disseminate it."​

    For this instance, it means that Alex acquired information as an NCR member (even if he created the information, since he is no longer in the role he existed in when he created it-it must be assumed the information should not have been given to you since he did not do it while in that role), and then proceeded to give it to you (or at least offer it).

    Vulpes, there has been very little substantial argument against the case of whether or not these PMs took place. Discord allows you to delete PMs and edit chats, meaning that since Caesar never offered any proof when I confronted him on the topic originally, and there STILL has been no proof of clean DMs, it has to be assumed with the proof we currently have that you did carry out the meeting as intended. Even if you offered proof now, there would be no way to comfortably tell that they were unmodified seeing as how much time has passed since this came to light.
     
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  11. Vulpes Inculta

    Vulpes Inculta

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    He just recently joined the Legion, he of course still has privs in the NCR Discord. It was not an unreasonable request to see if they still have that channel where they "make fun of [Caesar]"

    Also, you can see in the video that Lucius and Caesar both told told Rib to leave the Discord, consistent with my claim that the Legion did, in fact, sign the treaty in good faith. Rib Sauce made a minor slip-up and pulled a "just saying..."

    Anyway, I've said my piece. My final last input into the Convention that perhaps you should consider implementing different levels of punishment for a breach of the Treaty. Suggesting that Caesar or Me to be removed from leadership would not be proportionate punishment in this case.

    Edit: Added in this case.
     
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2017
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  12. Antoine Jones

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    True to Caesar, in Caesar I serve, in Caesar I am loyal
     
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  13. FluffyBird

    FluffyBird

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    Yo can yall like not just do le coppy and le past and actually give reasons why? I mean im usually neutral but... Either they are all alts (Which is likely) or they are just literally mindless drones that cant give reasons why... Personally id rather have men with minds and not mindless drones...
     
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  14. The Courier

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    True to Caesar, in Caesar I serve, in Caesar I am loyal
     
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  15. The Outlaw

    The Outlaw

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    you're not even in caesars legion
     
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  16. Blazefire1821

    Blazefire1821

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    Ya he is
     
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  17. The Outlaw

    The Outlaw

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    shh i wanted to look smart
     
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  18. Blazefire1821

    Blazefire1821

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    Um I take that back
     
  19. Harambe

    Harambe

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    It doesn't matter how much proof and arguments you pull, they're still going to deny everything and this thread will continue on forever until either one of you dies for typing too much :p
     
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  20. Nitecloud

    Nitecloud

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    Yup. And sooner or later I'll run out of popcorn to eat because this is never going to end. Damn.
     
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